Don't Forget the Intangibles of Podcast Advertising
Understanding if your ad is working is absolutely critical. Brand Lift studies help you know if they are working. Tom Webster and Edison Research do a phenomenal job of telling you just that.
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(Upbeat acoustic music)
Bryan: Panels, studies and research. That's what we're talking about today on Sounds Profitable with me, Bryan Bartletta.
This episode is sponsored by Claritas. Check out their recent, the marketing insider podcast, and learn how to use current trends, such as industry specific, lift success and CPM comparisons in podcasting to increase advertiser adoption. You can find out email@example.com.
I know that you're listening to Sounds Profitable because podcasts ad tech is important to you, but it's important to me that you are kept up to date on the latest news from the entire podcast industry. To help with that. Here's what happened last week. No matter when you're listening from James Cridland at Podnews.
How do you know if your ad is working? Heck what is, is your ad even out there trying to do, I wrote an article about brand studies, which I'll link in the description, which talks about how best to track your ads effectiveness. For that article, I spoke to Tom Webster of Edison research with the hopes of getting a better grasp on what people need to know to get the best impact out of their campaign and how best to track that impact.
(music fades out, interview begins)
You know, it's so funny. I just got into like the, the event scene and the circus scene and had time to start watching the stuff that you were doing. Right. Like, I was a product manager at megaphone and really started to watch your stuff, but it's so hard to carve out time. And just as I started to dig more into this and just as I started to find more time, Everything went digital, right?
Everything went online rather instead of in-person I'm bummed because you, you run a good show with all the things that you guys do. Uh, and it's, I think it's such an important thing that people watch, like sort of to plug it at the beginning, like Edison research, just so many cool things. And I think the infinite dial is one of the most on biased views of audio.
And it has a great lens on podcasting and what. Listeners want and the crazy part about it is like, well, it's not easy stuff to do. And sometimes that's not data that like an advertiser or campaign wants to do. So you guys built this survey and research company that is doing the things that we need that we don't always like.
We can't always like put the bill to the advertiser. They're the things that people should be investing into. And growing because it just helps us all view the same landscape. It doesn't push any one specific narrative. Yeah. I
Tom: mean, that's the thing, I'm not a, uh, podcast or who sort of dabbles in research.
I'm a 25 year survey researcher who loves podcasting and you know, we've been doing the infinite dial since 1998. It's still, I, I think the gold standard in terms of the, kind of the currency research that. Uh, podcasting looks at that streaming audio it looks at. And so on. It's done to the most ridiculous and ridiculously costly, uh, standards in survey research.
It's a, it's a telephone-based survey, which has a much, much higher response rate than anything online. It's over half mobile phone executed to match, uh, you know, statistics in the U S about who has mobile phones. And interestingly, and, and for years when I would tell people this, they would think it's funny.
And now they don't the most reliable statistics on the percentage of Americans who are mobile phone only who don't have landlines is owned by the CDC. The CDC tracks that every year, because they said, oh yeah. How to notify us if like, say there was, I don't know, pandemic, let's say so. Anyway. So just the costs alone on the infinite dial are nearly six figures.
I mean, it is, it is a bill that we write every year. Uh, but we continue to know that it is important to be the most reliable. Discerners of the present. I guess we leave forecasting to others to be able to put that out there and, and to where, you know, so that we can say, how big are these markets? Are these markets worth investing in?
And I, I like to think that we have done our part to help develop podcasting in terms of legitimizing it as a market for investment.
Bryan: I completely agree with that in like also so much. Direct inspiration. I've taken from you guys too, to build what I'm doing. Right? What sounds profitable? Like your newsletter is your opinions about this great industry and topic and all of that.
And it's, it's great. It's very candid. It's very, you it's professional too, but like you make your, you you're Tom Webster and then the infinite dial, like you just said that this is a six figure report. That I don't have to sign up and give you like all my information necessarily. I don't have to pay for access to this report.
Every single sales deck that goes out there for podcast ad tech podcast, advertising is going to include slides from this. Everybody is going to be updating their sheets when this comes out. We're recording this right now in March. And you know, we're about a week away or week and a half away from the next infinite dial being released.
And the week after that heck even that weekend, people are going to be scrambling to update that and interpret the statistics that kind of tell their story. And that's so important, right? Like we can gate knowledge and learning and education and landscape views. Behind paywalls. And we can charge all these people here, but every single person in this space, or even looking at the space, you look at the state of, because it's freely available.
It's not bias. It's crazy expensive to put together. And I don't, I don't know. I find so much value for it. I'm such a fan boy, and I'm sure it's pouring through here because there's how many other companies can say they can do that. And you've been at Edison for how long.
Tom: Uh, I've been at Edison for this this'll be 17 years in June.
Bryan: And how old is Edison research?
Tom: Total Edison research is, uh, 26 years old. So yeah, it was started in, uh, started in 94. And I joined really about a decade later, I think so. Right, right around in that, in that ballpark, I've been at Edison for one, I
Bryan: can't imagine the amount of effort and focus. It took to be like, Hey, we're going to get all these statistics and then just give them away.
Right. And we need, we need to sponsors to come in to sponsor our research. You don't get to put your thumbprint on it. You can come help us talk through it, but it's our research that we're doing because you're able to sponsor us. And because we're doing all these things, but we're not going to charge the end-user like what?
That's a cool story. Right? And that's, we need more of that. We need more people to put out information to make it accessible to more people to come in and spend, or just be part of the industry.
Tom: Yeah. You know, I don't know if we're going to veer into content marketing or Bryan, but I, you know, the, the infinite dial for us is we started it in 98.
So this will actually be the 24th year of it. Technically, if you inclusively look at that and, and it's kind of always been this way, we've, we've spared no expense to make it as representative of the population as we can. And we've never gated it. We've never required signups or anything like that. You do sign up for the webinar, but you can just go to our website and get it.
And that's been an, you know, an interesting thing to convince people about we, one of the things that I'm kind of proud of about it, we want a content marketing award at content marketing world two years ago, uh, for, you know, for best use of original research. But to me, it's kind of one of the longest running content marketing exercises.
Uh, that's out there because one of the things that we've learned and we've experimented with different things that our goal. Is to equip as many people as we can with these data. And if we gate it, if we put a sign up on it, if we. You know, God forbid what you want to list to call you, to sell you something for you to download it.
You're not going to download it. You're not going to use it. And we will have wasted a whole lot of effort. I'm putting this out so we don't ever get it.
Bryan: Yeah. And it's so hard, right? It's with the deep dives and with all the things that I've been doing with sounds profitable, talking to these partners that are sponsoring it.
Like I had to make a case for why, like, Hey, I'm not selling you an email list. I'll show you aggregate numbers. We'll show you the interesting stuff there. And I'm sure you guys do something similar. Like. For this one it's Triton that is, uh, sponsoring the 2021. And so that means that they're going to get some statistics of the people that watch the webinar.
I assume very high level nothing that they can go like call people about. But that branding is valuable. That means there's a year of content, a year of research that has their association with it, a webinar with one of their leaders on there, John Rosso. And that's, that's very cool. And that's all thought leadership stuff.
Yeah, and I was
Tom: just gonna say, and Triton has been a magnificent partner for us for I've lost track now seven or eight years on this. It used to be Arbitron before, uh, Nielsen bought Arbitron and, and swallowed them up. But we've had Triton as a partner and, you know, an editorial partner they're very involved in the questionnaire.
They're very involved in helping make sense of the data. And, you know, it's been a really good relationship and, you know, John Roscoe and I think. We try to put on the best show that we can. I, I like John. So that helps you guys, or
Bryan: you guys are pretty entertaining. Good voices between the two of you. He might have a little bit better background on the video though.
He's got that cool music set up.
Tom: Oh, he does. Yeah. And I'm going to try and have a good fakey fake background for the instrumental this year, but, uh, you know, John, John's a pro
Bryan: yeah. It's so funny because I focused, I was like, oh, the podcasts are, sounds probably can't be like a promotion for anybody. And I want to really emphasize to people that, like, I am a fan boy of Tom and Edison, and they're what I'm modeling everything over.
This is like true, genuine endorsement because as I've talked to Tom more and more, and as he helped me with this article, You know, where I was a product manager for data and monetization, where megaphone, where I was with barometric and then Claritas with attribution and my roles as a commander and ad ops and stuff.
Edison research always came across as the company that just talked about the space, did all the crazy research at the top level. And more and more as I'm talking to Tom, what I'm realizing is they have tools for all of those levels of reporting available for people to use. Now. We default to Nielsen a lot in advertising because Nielsen has a big name and part of, I think the bad part of advertising technology and advertising is that once a name and a company gets so big, it becomes something that everybody just autopilot asks for.
And we don't tend to think about what we're going to do with it, right? Like you want a Nielsen study while the person asking for that? Honestly, probably doesn't know what that means. Necessarily. Someone above them ask for a form of validation. They picked it off of a list or the company has decided to standard, but that individual doesn't always know what they're looking for.
And so, you know, it's a big, important thing for me that more people know in this space, that's not just Nielsen. Addison has a product, uh, signal hill has a product. There are a bunch of companies out there that the prices vary across the board. I mean, Edison puts a lot of work and effort into this and they're customized products for campaigns like are, I think, appropriately priced, but the thing is, is.
Just call. If you're running a campaign, if you're doing anything in podcast, ad tech, podcast, advertising call all the partners, have all the conversations, understand their capabilities because there's unique stories there, you know?
Tom: Yeah. I, I so appreciate that. I mean, we are able to work with, uh, some wonderful ad tech partners, and I think, you know, what we do is very complimentary to that.
We're obviously very focused on the humans. Uh, on what the humans are doing when they're listening to podcasts, how the humans respond to both the content and to the messaging and the advertising. Uh, you know, our, we were able back in 2014 to launch a subscription-based product called share of ear, which gets quoted a lot in, especially in agency presentations and things like with media buyers and, you know, various agency platforms.
It's, it's the only single source measure of all audio in America. So it looks at both online and offline and expresses all of those different forms of audio devices, brands, all of that. As a share that percentage of the amount of time we spent listening to audio, that's devoted to a given medium or given brand and so on.
And that's a very brute force approach, right. We just throw thousands and thousands of bodies at it and literally, and, uh, and lots of people, uh, kind of coding very minute data responses to that. And knowing that, Hey, that was crazy. And B that it works. Uh, we applied the same model to podcasting really.
So we're able to do something very different, I think to what people that are measuring ad tech and also the download measures are providing. Which is essential by the way. I mean, this business doesn't run without downloads. Don't get me wrong, but rather than sort of look at things from the server out, we're able to look at things from the audience perspective and compare the two, you know, so we know from some of the companies, the ad tech companies out there.
Who's advertising the most, who's spending the most through impressions and things like that. We know on our end, what's getting through to people in terms of recall awareness, both from our podcast, consumer tracker, and also from the custom work that we're able to do. Uh, and you know, if there's any story that I would want to tell over and over in podcasting and Bryan, you know, this to be true.
It's that there's no secret sauce about being an ad on a podcast as opposed to some other medium, right? Yeah. A good ad is a good ad. A bad ad is a bad ad, a bad fit between a product and a message and a service and a show doesn't work. A good fit, works fantastically, and we're able to show that. And I think the reason why I'm such a passionate believer in what we do, not as a substitute for, but as it.
Uh, as something that rides right along with ad tech. Is that it a great podcast and a great podcast ad a great campaign put together has such a multiplicative effect on the power of a message that you don't get from banner ads. You don't get from almost any form of any form of digital advertising, frankly, when you, when you get it right.
And that goes well beyond an impression, it goes beyond. The change in the audience's willingness to consider a brand, their willingness to make a change in the supermarket, their willingness to visit a store they've never visited before. And those are the kinds of things that we think we measure as well as anybody.
Bryan: Yeah. And that's, I think that's such an admirable thing about you and how you present this stuff is that you kind of lead the pack on like, Hey, this isn't complete. It is a well-researched well presented while bias identified view. And it adds to the total view and it helps people understand all sides of it.
I, I really think that you guys get the listener side amazingly. Right? I think it's so important. And I think that you're right. These other ad tech tools do get their side in other media channels. I mean, It always felt like that tech partner would come in and say our tools the best, and the answer is you're wrong.
Right, right out the gate. The fact that you said that you're wrong, there's no, unless I can touch the head of every single person who walks into the store and then ask them an exit survey of what they're buying and read their mind of all of their thoughts. Truthfully, there's nothing that's a hundred percent accurate for anything.
Right. And so what you've always done, and this is why I love your newsletter so much is that you will own the bias. You say, this is what it is. There is ways to get bad data, but most data collection is good. Presentation is important when you explain the biases of it, how you use it, what you're trying to do, you could take any data and bend it to your well and say, this proves my point.
But if you use these tried and true practices from the ad tech partners to the survey and research partners, to be that constant and that you let your data compare to that constant and show where it is in relation NATS, what is important? Right. We're I don't know. I feel like direct marketing is, is like very cool, but also like terrible because.
Someone's going to look at the price of that survey, or look at the attribution in podcasting, which can't get everything and just be like, well, on Facebook, I know every click and I know the exact dollar amount and like, that's neat, but it's not podcasting. There's a reason that mediums are different.
There's a reason you want to try it. So, yeah. I like, I like the ownership that you guys are not saying that this is right. You're just saying this is well-researched and here's how we present it.
Tom: Everything has a margin of error, you know, and, and we've been the sole providers of the exit polls for the networks during the elections, since 2003 people will sometimes denigrate survey research, I think, cause they, I either, Hey, they don't understand it or B they think I can do it myself.
Cause there are self service tools out there. I can guarantee you that if you tried to do the exit, polls yourself with, you know, whatever. You, you might make some mistakes and, and we've never had a client miss projector race, you know, and I've said this before. I think what survey research, what good survey research produces aren't guesses, they're estimates and estimates look, sound and behave within certain parameters.
Most of the time they're plus or minus, you know, in our podcast, consumer tracker they're plus or minus one, except in a very extraordinary circumstances. And we're experienced enough to spot those. So, you know, we believe very passionately what we do. And I, I think. You know, ad tech is, is extraordinarily important in legitimising podcasting as a bucket for brands to put their dollars because that's because those are the buckets they're used to putting money into and podcasting's bucket has to look very similar to those other buckets.
Or it's, or it's not going to get the duckets in, in those buckets. I guess I just made that up. Uh, that's one thing, but the other side of the coin though, is, you know, though, we are audio only dear listeners. I can see Bryan right now, uh, is that the new shore microphone? It shares the MV seven, the MV seven, right?
When I get done with this, I'm going to, I'm going to Google that cause you sound really good. And I'm going to look that up and guess who's going to get the attribution for that Google. Uh, there's, there's going to be a search with no other breadcrumbs attached to it. And, you know, I might search for it.
It might show up as an ad. Maybe I'll click on the first ad for it. Instead of the organic searches. I don't know all of these things will happen, but it's, but Bryan Barletta is the one who should get the credit for it because I heard him use it and it sounded good. And so that's the dimension that we're trying to add, which I think really shows that the true value of a great marriage, between message.
Medium and creative that you can get from the best podcast ads. Yeah.
Bryan: There, honestly, and we need to be more honest about it as an industry. There's holes in podcasts, ad tech, like there is a knowledge gap. I think there are a lot of people in the management and leadership positions that are not doing the right job to empower the people under them, to educate them, to give them time to do it.
And it's not because they're like malicious it's because there's not a lot of time. There's a new campaign coming. There's a new idea. We're all rushing, rushing, rushing, like. The idea that everybody got their commute time back. That was cute for the first like two months. But like now everybody's working through it or, you know, sleeping at the office as much as they are working from home effectively a megaphone.
It was really important for us to get data and use data and have a megaphone, which was well-funded and well taken care of. Like, we still looked to other partners for it because you have to own and accept that. Like, yeah. Cool. You can hire a few people internally and it might save you some bucks, like.
In the near term, but that's like a whole another line you have to do. It's okay. For things to be specialized. It's okay. To work with other partners on stuff. Heck the stuff that you're talking about with Shira veer, that research, that identification, that plus or minus value, these ad tech companies can take that data and work with you directly for custom solutions if they wanted to.
And now they can say not only is our control file, uh, indicative of the podcasters that we listened to or that we experienced, like pod sites. For example, there. The control file is built just off of podcast listeners, but they could also layer in some learnings from your data to improve it further, right?
Like there is a collaborative nature, all this, there is no shame in saying you can't do everything. There is no shame in not having it in house. And I don't think that most companies should have all these tools in-house because then it's great in your own homework. Like if a Spotify starts doing their own surveys and their own, uh, attribution tracking, like.
At the end of the day, like, are they going to tell me when it's bad? Like maybe legally, because they're a publicly traded company, but am I going to have that doubt in my head? Definitely. Right. That's just how people work. So working with these third parties is really important. You had talked about this before.
We, we dug into it a little bit, but like surveys are so important on every level, right? Like, and, and everybody with a podcast, like let's, let's just take advantage of it here. Bryan@soundsprofitable.com with an IRA. Why Tom, what putting you on the spot? What are like three questions that my audience should send me answers to?
That would be valuable for me as a podcast
Tom: or. Yeah, but that's a great one. You are putting me on the spot. I'm going to give you a couple though. Okay. Here's here's, here's one of my favorites. If you were to walk into, do you know the Dewey decimal system, Bryan Bennett to a library library.
Bryan: I haven't been in a library in a long time, but, uh, growing up in Massachusetts, that was something that they definitely made sure we learned in school.
Tom: Hundred percent. Yeah. And I'm in Boston right now, but not very far from the central Boston public library, which is sadly still shuttered. But a really good question. I think to ask your listeners is if I walked into the, into the great, the, you know, the grand library of Alexandria, where all of the podcasts are stored, what section of the library would they find you in?
Oh, that's a really good question to ask people, I think, and, and really kind of drill down in that. That's one question I'd like to ask. I'm going to give you, I think my three favorite questions. I'm going to give you this gold content, right? Question number two. Um, is, do you think the show is popular?
This is a question I ask all the time when I'm doing qualitative research for, for, I do a lot of qual research actually for, uh, for some of the larger podcast networks, testing, new show ideas, and, you know, even, uh, doing some listening studies of existing programming. And one of the questions I like to ask people is, do you think this is a popular show?
I think people like to show, and then that sort of puts that out of, you know, you can, you can very easily say, oh, I like it. It's good. I don't know. It's cool. And stuff like that. That's not incredibly helpful. Yeah. Uh, you know, move, move the box outside of their skull a little bit and ask them, do you think people like this, you think this is a popular show or not?
Uh they'll. They will start to go down different paths. And then my, uh, my all-time favorite question is I call it the eulogy question. If sound's profitable were to die tomorrow, we're just to go away. I'm sorry, Bryan. I killed it. Oh no. What would you miss the most? And people can, can be somewhat more eloquent in describing what they would miss.
Then they can't be talking about the positives that they like. We're much more equipped as humans with, uh, to be articulate about the negative than we are articulate about the positive, our vocabulary for the positive. Is very limited too. I like it. It's good. I love it and stuff. Uh, but if you ask somebody what they don't like about something, prepare for the dictionary, it's why Twitter exists.
That's why Twitter exists. And I, and I find that if you sort of put a negative frame, not negative as, and I'm bringing you down, but if I were to take something away, what would you miss the most then? You'll, you'll actually get some responses that maybe you weren't expecting, uh, when you sort of pursue things from a, what do you like about this, this current thing they might give you what they, you know, yeah.
So anyway, there you go, going to give you three questions.
Bryan: What we're going to do is I'm going to put those in the show notes and I'll put my email in there for people to contact. And then another thing I learned from you is you can't ask something of your audience without giving them something. So anybody who fills out the survey.
And also gives me their address. I'll mail them a sound's profitable stickers that we just got, uh, as a thank you for your towel. There we
Tom: go. Right? Yeah. It's you know, to me, anytime you get genuine listener feedback, it's a gift and you may not agree with it. It may objectively be wrong, but it's a gift because someone the time, and to me, if you're going to ask for that kind of feedback to genuinely make the show better.
I think a you should, you should offer some kind of an incentive and I've actually got a big, long article. Um, probably not this week's newsletter, but maybe a couple of newsletters from now where I'm going to talk about a lot of this, that you should find a way to express your things, whether that's with an exclusive piece of content, some stickers, you know, it's really hard to do B2B podcast research for B2B podcasts, all audiences, right.
But a donation to a cause that is relevant to that, to that community can, can help and things like that. So it doesn't always have to be cash and sometimes cash is really. Off-brand it always works, but that may not be the right call, but at least it says I'm going to do something with this. And then on the flip side, when you do get that feedback and you do do something with it, don't keep that a secret continually.
Talk about that with your listeners, that thanks so much for the surveys you guys filled out three months ago, four months ago, we're introducing a new feature this week. And really this came from feedback from you. Keep it alive. Keep people aware that. They are part of the show. And that's, I think a way to sort of link your, your survey research with your marketing in a way that doesn't compromise the survey research.
It just says, thank you for your feedback where you're using it. You are helping the show. What you did was not in vain. We used it.
Bryan: Yeah, no, that's I think that's so important feedback. People taking the time to put that out there. I know of a certain three letter organization in advertising technology that a lot of people send feedback into and they didn't even acknowledge it.
So I'll tell you getting a thanks for sending this in great points. We'll talk about it more and get back two and then hearing or seeing like pain from that. It makes people feel good. Yeah. And it makes them feel part of the community, like you said, and then they talk about, got it more right. I've received some feedback.
I'm actively working on it. Based on the fact that this might not come out immediately. I don't want to say any of it here. I'll do it with dynamic ad insertion later, but it's so great. And I want to reward that. I want to send these people stickers because that's what I have available. I could shout out their names.
I could do so many different things than I will. Um, And I think that's really powerful and a great note to end on, you know, everybody should really check out Tom Webster dot sub stack.com to follow Tom's newsletter, tons of great information for any level of podcasts or anybody in the industry. Uh, it is one that I don't miss.
And now I am so thankful that you did in podcast form because now I have even less of an excuse to not listen to it or read it immediately. And then the infinite dial at Edison research. Um, by the time people listen to this, the 2021 will be available, uh, in both video form and the PowerPoint as well.
Uh, and I hope everybody, you know, digs into that finds tons of value from it. And in the same way that I'm asking for feedback, Chu, Tom and Edison research your questions, like they want to hear that and they want to know how they can work with you. And yeah, you're a part of this industry too. So. Tom. So glad to have you here.
Final question. I'm gonna put you on the spot with what is a podcast you're listening to lately. That's not super mainstream.
Tom: Uh, I love the 20,000 Hertz podcast and I know it's, it's, it's not, um, but I'm, I'm incredibly appreciative of the work that goes into it. The sound design that goes into it, the amount of research that goes into it.
So. That's when I, I, I rarely miss. I also, I listened to curiosity daily every single day with, uh, with my wife. I love that one. And I want to just real quick, shout you out, Bryan, because the work that you're doing with dynamic ad insertion in creative ways in your own show is I think shining a beacon to what it can be.
A lot of times when people talk about dynamic ad insertion, they're talking about the. Uh, the remnants of a failure of the imagination, and I commend you for the imagination you're putting into it. And she might ask you that what, what it can do. So, yeah.
Bryan: Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited for a world where people can get to carve out a few hours a week and mess around with these tools.
The people that are way more creative than me, because I'm just like, oh, well I can say something different per country. And there are way smarter people out there that can do cool stuff. So thank you. Thank you for that compliment. That means a lot coming from you. And I'm so happy to have you here and I'll hopefully I'll have you back.
Tom: No doubt. Thanks Bryan. Thanks.
(upbeat acoustic music fades in)
and stick around for some special bonus content. At the end of the episode, I've teamed up with Evo Terra to give you a minute long strategic thought that is guaranteed to shift your perspective on the present and future of podcasting. As we all work to make podcasting better. Thanks to Tom Webster for coming on to help expand on my article.
Don't forget the intangibles of podcast advertising. If you liked what you heard and want to connect, you can find me Bryan Barletta on LinkedIn, way less formerly on Twitter as a high five RPG. And of course you can email me, Bryan, at sounds profitable.com. The most important part about sounds profitable is providing you with more resources and making sure that I can answer your questions.
So check out the link to YAPA in the episode description and leave me a message. And with your permission, I'll answer it live on the show, the sound's profitable podcasts and all cool ad tech bells as you've experienced for thanks to our host and sponsor wish God, everything you've heard since the conversation ended was uniquely created to target you.
Using their dynamic ad insertion features. If any of the call-outs were wrong, let us know, depending on how you're listening. There were over 10 opportunities to hear dynamically inserted content and ads. In this episode, while we continue to tweak and innovate our setup, some of the breaks may be more noticeable than others.
Thank you for bearing with us and please send over your feedback. The sound's profitable podcasts, but not be possible without the help and support of Evo Terra. James Cridland Ian Powell and Sam Mars. Thank you all for your help and support.